Peter Steinfeld: Hello and welcome to The Employee Safety Podcast from AlertMedia, where you’ll hear advice from industry leaders on how to protect your people and business. I’m Peter Steinfeld.

Andy Lapierre began his career as a firefighter and paramedic, then spent the next three decades helping organizations prepare for the unexpected. He currently serves as Senior Vice President and Business Resiliency Manager for a large financial institution where he oversees resilience programs designed to keep people safe and operations running. Today he shares leadership lessons, resilience strategies and hard earned insights on maintaining resilience through uncertainty.

Let’s hear from Andy.

Hey Andy, thanks for being here. I appreciate you coming.

Andy Lapierre: Hey, I really appreciate you taking the time and letting me come out here and talk. This is my first podcast, so I’m really excited about it.

Peter Steinfeld: Good. You’re going to do great. I’m glad your first one is in person instead of over a Zoom or a Teams screen.

Andy Lapierre: I think since the pandemic, people might be a little apprehensive about continuing to do Teams or Zoom calls and things like that. So when you can get out in person, it just makes it so much nicer. So thank you again.

Peter Steinfeld: I agree with you wholeheartedly. Well, let’s go ahead and get into it. So your career started in emergency response. How did that help shape the way that you think about business resiliency today?

Andy Lapierre: First and foremost, it starts with life safety. This was all started pre-9/11. So I was a firefighter medic before 9/11. So when you go in there and you’re doing your training and all your schoolwork and things like that, you’re learning how to manage events, you’re learning what comes first. What do you got to do first? You need to make sure you keep your head on a swivel, that you’re not getting any tunnel vision and things like that, not to mention doing that kind of work, you’re exposed to everything, whether it’s something medical, whether it’s something Mother Nature related. So you pretty much are getting thrown everything when you’re in that type of field.

And so by having that experience, I think it was a really easy transitioning coming into a business continuity, business resiliency field. And that’s kind of where that whole journey started is one of my previous companies that I worked for. And again, this is before 9/11, came up to me and said, you know what, we’re going to start a new department. It’s called Business Continuity. And we think you would be the right fit for it because of what you do or what you did in your background. And so here it is 30 years later, almost. So being able to act well under pressure, because when we’re dealing with emergencies, whether it was back when I was a firefighter or dealing with things now that can impact an organization, you have to be ready and you have to be adaptable and flexible.

Peter Steinfeld: And it seems like what you really do in your job back then and now is just bring order when there’s chaos.

Andy Lapierre: Yes, sir. You’ve got to have that train conductor to try to figure out what’s going on and making sure that we’re keeping things in check. Like I said, it always comes back to life safety. Our employees, are we keeping them safe? Then we also have to think about their families too, because we don’t want them worrying about their families and things like that. And when you’re dealing with disasters, emergencies, crisis, that’s a huge part that you need to really take into consideration all at the same time while trying to work through whatever is being dealt with you at the time.

Peter Steinfeld: Why do you think that people sometimes conflate business continuity and business resilience?

Andy Lapierre: The analogy that I like to use on this is think of a rubber band. On a rubber band, you have the flexibility. To me, that’s business resiliency. Business continuity, where it started from, was kind of a knee jerk reaction. X happens, so we have to do Y. Okay, we need to stop, take a step back, let’s fix what broke, and then we can go ahead and move on. When you have the resiliency piece, you kind of have that worked into your framework to say, okay, we can hit this bump, but we’re going to still keep going and still maintaining what we do with as minimal interruption as we can. And that’s where kind of that rubber band comes into play when you pull it and it goes right back to its original form. But again, it has that flexibility where we can bend it in multiple directions and it still does the same job.

Peter Steinfeld: Right. So organizations really should strive for resilience so when something bad happens, they don’t have to just watch the tree snap and figure out, how are we going to repair this? It’s like, oh, it just kind of bends in the wind. Or to your point, the rubber band just stretches and you’re able to go with the flow.

Andy Lapierre: Absolutely. And if you think about from business continuity, that knee jerk reaction, a lot of times the people that would be involved in the business continuity were people that have been with the organizations for an extended period of time. They kind of know the ins and outs. From a resiliency standpoint, you start looking at making sure that the training comes in with the new hires, making sure that they understand what is their role in making sure that your organization is resilient as well. So it takes even a different approach to making sure that we’re bringing it sooner versus when something happens.

Peter Steinfeld: So continuity is more like a crack team that comes in to fix the problem when it happens, whereas resiliency is everybody’s job in the organization. If you started yesterday or you’ve been here for 30 years, it’s just in the nature of what you do in your job day in and day out, it’s how you operate.

Andy Lapierre: That’s absolutely correct.

Peter Steinfeld: Yes, sir. Well, over the last 30 years, you’ve certainly watched this profession evolve quite significantly. What changes have had the biggest impact on organizations ability to respond to disruptions?

Andy Lapierre: Let’s take the pandemic, for instance. I think the biggest thing that came out of that is companies learning to adapt quickly where they can still continue their operations as a business. So if we think about it working remotely now, it’s something that seems like it’s always been here. But before the pandemic, there wasn’t as many people who had that opportunity to work remote. So when the pandemic came in, we had to kind of think on the fly saying, how are we going to continue our operations if we’re having to keep the social distance if we have people getting sick? And so it took a lot of creativity, but it also, at the same time, it required speed too. We didn’t have time to wait and say, okay, well, let’s think about this for a few months or a year or something and come up with a framework or a game plan as to how we’re going to approach it. It was more, we got to get this done and we need to get it done as quickly as we possibly can.

So definitely the pandemic was a huge eye opener for organizations all throughout the world. And it just wasn’t one country that was being impacted. It was the entire world that was having to adapt to this. And so if you look at it today, it kind of just seems like, wow, how big of an impact that was. But now in today’s environment, people are still working remotely or they’re doing a hybrid approach, or it’s just another day now.

Peter Steinfeld: And you could argue based on the point you made earlier, that it’s made organizations more resilient because previously it’s like everybody has to come into the office to get work done. And if you can’t, you go home for the day and you don’t do anything. Now it’s like, no, no, no, no. You can work from home. We know you can work from home. So if something bad happens, people just without even being told, oh, I’m just going to work from home today.

Andy Lapierre: Absolutely. But then you have organizations, though, too, that are customer facing. They have to be right in front of their customers, their clients and things like that. They didn’t have that opportunity. And so that’s where that creativity came into play in saying, okay, how can they still be there for their customers, their clientele, and still provide the services that they do? So hats off to all these different organizations that were thinking on their feet to go ahead and make that come to reality.

Peter Steinfeld: What’s nice about it as well is the people who can operate and work in other places like their home, they know how to do that now, and they can just jump into it right away, which allows folks that focus on resiliency and continuity to focus on the people who don’t have that option. So now they can put a lot of effort on making sure they’ve got contingencies there and not have to worry about the people that can kind of take care of themselves.

Andy Lapierre: And it goes back to that rubber band, because with that resiliency piece, it’s that part that just makes it a little bit easier for those organizations to continue their operations with hopefully minimal interruption. Because now, if I’ve got to have people work from home, well, we know we’re still doing the work that needs to be done each day, so.

Peter Steinfeld: Exactly. Well, organizations today have a lot more tools, training, and resources than ever before. In your experience, what separates the organizations that are truly prepared from those who are not?

Andy Lapierre: Tools and resources are huge. Like, if you’re a carpenter, you don’t have a hammer, you’re not going to be a very good carpenter, probably. So when you’re trying to make sure that the job that you’re doing is being done in the right way, if you don’t have the right tools, if you don’t have people doing it, it makes it very difficult. The tools that are out there right now have come such a long way in a short period of time where they give you that opportunity to give you the expertise that you may need. Not all of us are meteorologists, but you know what? There are plenty of tools out there that can help us deliver weather information. Not all of us are able to communicate out to masses as quickly as we need to. But you know what, there are tools out there that that’s what they specialize in, is being able to go ahead and get those mass communications out to people. So by having those tools in place definitely makes a job a lot easier. It can make it where you can respond quicker and the response is really important, especially to a lot of organizations. If you are a critical infrastructure, time is of the essence.

And resources, if you’re a one man show, which I have that shirt, I have been a one man show in organizations where it’s only you and you’re trying to do all these different things for an organization and it makes it very difficult and it increases the stress and things like that. So by having resources too, it can help alleviate those things. And you’re able to kind of have your hand in multiple facets of the organization, making sure that multiple things are getting done and not just relying on one person. So resources and tools, you gotta have them. Without it, I honestly truly think that you would set yourself up for failure.

Peter Steinfeld: Yeah, you just have to have a lot more humans sitting around doing things manually. So I would assume that what you’re looking for when you’re evaluating the right tools is number one, what’s a force multiplier, what can help me do the job of five people, 10 people, whatever it is. And then perhaps because you’re having to deal with stuff under stress, ease of use is pretty important. Would you agree with those and would you say is there anything else you should think about?

Andy Lapierre: Ease of use is probably one of the most key features that you’ve got to think about because a lot of times when you’re using these tools, you may not be using them every day. And so when something happens, I don’t want to have to open up a reference manual and say step one, step two, step three, you want something that’s going to be quick and easy, that you can go ahead, hopefully a couple clicks and it’s done. So definitely ease of use. I know when I’m searching for products that’s probably the top thing that I’m looking for because may not just be me using it, it may be other people within your organization that have to use it. So you have to take that into fact that are you going to have one person using it or are you going to have a hundred people using it?

Peter Steinfeld: Yeah. What’s their level of training? And they’ll probably use it even less than you do. So it’s got to be really simple.

Andy Lapierre: So that. And you got to know what it is that you’re looking for. Okay, if you need a hammer, look for a hammer. If you need a screwdriver, look for a screwdriver. I don’t, you know. Yes, we’ve all used screwdrivers as hammers before. You know, you kind of open up the junk drawer and you don’t have your hammer, but you got the screwdriver and you’re there trying to tap in a nail or something like that. We’ve all done that, but, yeah, you gotta make sure you have the right tool.

Peter Steinfeld: Indeed. How do you approach conversations with leaders and frontline employees, too, about the importance of preparedness?

Andy Lapierre: If you’re looking at talking to your leaders, you always talk about, you got that five minutes in the elevator with them. What is it that you really want to talk? What is it that you need to kind of convey to them? And so having that preparedness from the leadership standpoint is letting them know about continuing the operations, keeping that disruption at a minimal as best as you possibly can, and being able to hopefully not tarnish the company, making sure you’re not impacting financials, operational reputation, those different types of things. From the employee standpoint, letting the employees know, look, we’re preparing because your safety is paramount to us. So the things that we train you on, the things that we ask you to do, it’s not just because we want you to do it. It’s because we have your safety in mind and we want you to be able to ensure that when you come into work, you feel safe.

Peter Steinfeld: And where do you think resilience and continuity leaders go wrong when they’re having these interactions with leaders or with frontline employees? You’ve got five minutes in the elevator. Not even you got two, three minutes in an elevator with that executive. What are they saying that’s making that executive tune out? What are they saying to the frontline employee that’s making them tune out and go, oh, it’s just another got to do. And how do you flip that? What should you focus on instead?

Andy Lapierre: Yeah, and I think one of the biggest things that you’ll hear people in our profession is the it’s not going to happen to us. It’s never happened to us. So we don’t have to worry about that. It’s not going to happen to us. It can be a very difficult conversation getting people out of that mindset of the it’s never happened to me. Why is it going to happen now? Where we can see from past events. Yeah, things that happen have never happened. But it’s something that you gotta prepare for. So to think about it from the standpoint of would you rather be faced in front of the media to say we were prepared, or would you rather have to stand in front of the media and say, we weren’t prepared because we didn’t think it could happen to us? Which end of the spectrum would you like to be on?

Peter Steinfeld: Yeah, so start to make it about them a little bit and make it very personal and frame it in a way that they would understand the things they care about. Something we explore on the show quite a bit is the idea of translating emergency speak into executive speak. And executives really care about, like, how do I make more money, how do I save money, and how do I reduce risk to the business so I can keep it operating? And oftentimes people in our field struggle with finding a way to communicate in those terms. How long did it take you to change your mindset when you moved from the frontline emergency management into the corporate world? And what are some of the interesting stories you could tell along the way?

Andy Lapierre: Jargons. A world of jargons and acronyms. I don’t think I’ve ever been introduced to so many acronyms that I have within both, going from the fire, EMS field over to even corporate America. It’s to the point where I think the only one that has more jargons and acronyms is the military, you know, and it’s funny because every time you hear a new jargon, a new acronym, you almost have to kind of think of what it is that they’re trying to convey. So first and foremost, I think of whoever it is that your audience is, you got to make sure you’re scaling it to them so they understand. So when you’re talking about life safety, if you’re talking about an AED, does somebody really know what an AED is, or do you need to say, hey, it’s an automated external defibrillator. So that way if somebody’s heart, you know, stops or goes out on the wrong rhythm, we can go ahead and shock them and try to get them back into the proper rhythm, you know, and things like that. Same thing from the business continuity side, you know, are you talking about a BIA? You know, a business impact analysis? Okay, so what is a BIA? And so when you’re talking to your different audience, you gotta make sure that you keep that in check. So that way you can say, you know what, when we’re talking about a business impact analysis, we’re simply talking about a fancy way of saying, it’s a questionnaire. We want to get to know what it is that we’re dealing with here. It’s simply a questionnaire that’s going to ask a bunch of different questions. And from that we’re going to do an analysis of it to say, how do we need to proceed, what do we need to do, what’s important, what’s not important. So making sure that you’re just tailoring it for the right audience.

Peter Steinfeld: Yeah, that’s fantastic advice. And we forget it because we repeat BIA so many times we have to use the acronym or we’ll go crazy. But then when we talk to people that haven’t said it a million times, they have no idea what’s going on. And psychologically, if you’re interacting with someone and you start throwing around jargon they don’t get, they’re going to start feeling like they’re less okay than you, and that’s not good psychologically. And what do people do when they feel less okay? They make you go away and they don’t pay attention to what you want.

Andy Lapierre: They’re going to check out. They’re going to check out and, you know, they’re going to start doodling on their notepad or something like that. And especially if you’re trying to engage your leadership normally, you’re maybe trying to get something, maybe you’re trying to let them know the importance of something so you really want them to understand, you don’t want them to be checked out.

Peter Steinfeld: Well, that’s a mistake that I think people on our side of the table oftentimes make when they’re trying to engage with executives and frontline employees. But after decades of helping organizations prepare for disruptions, what are some of the most common mistakes you still see leaders make in organizations when it comes to this kind of stuff?

Andy Lapierre: I think some of the things that people still take into consideration is what am I going to do if it does break? Okay, I understand it can break, but it’s the part of what am I going to do if that does break? How am I going to fix that? Now, when I say that, it’s a couple different pieces that we can take a look at here. You can take it from the human side of it saying, if you pandemic, okay, you had people that got sick, and so how are you going to fix that? Well, do we have to go out to a temp agency? Do we have to bring some people in? Do we have to cross train people? Do we have to take other people that are doing maybe not such critical work and bring them over to do this critical work and give them a crash course. So refer to these as manual workarounds. What is it that’s going to take in order to fix that? The building fell down. What are you going to do? We need to go to another building or do we need to send the people home that can go ahead and work from home?

During a building evacuation if a fire drill goes off, one thing that’s really interesting, if you’ve never paid attention to it, if you ever have a fire drill and you see people evacuating the building and people work normally on their laptops, how many people do you see leaving with their laptops when they’re evacuating a building?

Peter Steinfeld: Right, right.

Andy Lapierre: You know, so you may have had one issue where, okay, we had a fire in the building. We got everybody out safely. But you know what? Out of those hundred people that were in the building, maybe only five people brought out their laptops with them. So now you got to go through and hurry up and procure 95 other laptops and get things loaded on it. And it’s just other things like that that I think people that don’t do this day in and day out, they may not think about those things. And us as business continuity professionals, we have to make sure that we educate them and train them about those things. It’s not just, okay, there’s a crack, so I’m going to put a piece of tape on it. The piece of tape is just temporary. It’s a temporary solution. We have to think about the big picture of what are we going to do to actually fix that crack and continue to move on.

Peter Steinfeld: What does effective coordination look like when incidents start to move quickly?

Andy Lapierre: Yeah, high speed train. Honestly, you think about it, that high speed train is coming down the tracks. And so you have to be ready, ready to know when you need to go ahead and start slowing it down, making a stop, letting people get on and get off. And so when an incident is occurring normally, you’re going to have an incident commander. They’re going to be your train conductor. They’re going to be making sure that the train is coming into the station, the people are getting on and off. People understand what needs to be done. They want to make sure that information that’s being funneled in is the proper information that’s being funneled out. So they want to make sure that they have that oversight of everything that’s going on to make sure that we hopefully cut down as best as we can on any confusion, any questions that may come up, and if there are questions come up, then it’s that incident commander that should be saying, okay, let’s take these questions back. Let’s make sure we get them answered and get them reported back out at our next meeting.

So when you have something moving really fast, it kind of goes back to that adaptability and flexibility that you have to be able to go with that flow. Now there are some instances they move a little bit slower. There are some instances that move a little bit quicker. We look at a hurricane, for instance, hurricanes, oh, we get noticed that, hey, it’s five days out, it’s three days out, it’s two days. So we’re getting that notice and giving us a little bit more prep time. Whereas you get a tornado come in, boom, the tornado touched down, you get a matter of minutes. So again, it is something that you have to be ready for, whether it’s something that’s slower moving or something that’s gonna move really quick. And this day and age, social media, you know what can happen. Everybody’s got their phone and a lot of times things are showing up on social media before they make it to news networks.

Peter Steinfeld: Yeah, you’ve gotta control the narrative quickly because if you don’t do it these days, then someone or something else will, without doubt.

Andy Lapierre: Right. And then what happens, it comes right back to your organization’s reputation and that could be a huge impact.

Peter Steinfeld: Who should be that incident commander? Does it matter what your title is in the organization and when should that title be conferred on that person? Should it be when the incident starts or should it be many months before it possibly even happens?

Andy Lapierre: So in a best case scenario, best practices, you should already have those people pre identified. And I say people because chances are it’s not going to be the same person. Your incident commander should be the best person suited for that position. So if you’re dealing with a technology issue, do you really want to have somebody from your physical security team dealing with the technology issue?

Peter Steinfeld: Probably not.

Andy Lapierre: You know, I mean, they’re going to try to do their best, but it’s whoever’s best suited for that position.

Peter Steinfeld: Interesting.

Andy Lapierre: So you want to make sure that first of all that person knows, hey, this can be an additional hat that you’re going to wear as if we have an incident, you may turn out to be the incident commander. Okay. And so within different organizations that I’ve worked at, a lot of times, yes, I am the incident commander, but am I always the incident commander? No, because again, it may not be my area that I’m an expert in. And so we want to make sure it’s the best person who is well versed in that potential situation.

Peter Steinfeld: I can imagine that you’ve managed responses on everything from severe weather to public health events and everything in between. So what have those experiences taught you about leadership during uncertainty?

Andy Lapierre: I think if I would reference one, I would reference back when we had probably Hurricane Katrina. Before Hurricane Katrina hit, I was actually in New Orleans on vacation and I actually walked up to part of the levee and I stood there in amazement. I’m like I said, and I was talking with my friends, I said, could you believe I said this wall right here, that’s what’s holding this river back.

Peter Steinfeld: Wow.

Andy Lapierre: And that was about four months before Katrina hit. And then all of a sudden Katrina hit and we all know how devastating it was and the things that people had to adapt to, that people had to deal with. I think that was truly the really big eye opening moment because you saw the good, the bad, the ugly, the indifferent. And I think whether if it was the good, the bad, the ugly, you were able to pull things out of there and say, okay, what can you do as an organization, as a professional to make it where there’s a silver lining, to hopefully ensure that you’re prepared for that? If that event happens to you as a firefighter, there are things that you see that you hope you never have to see again. And seeing those things maybe gives you a little bit tougher skin, but it doesn’t change the outcome. I think it just gives you a little bit more tougher skin where maybe you’re not as numb to it as you were in the beginning.

Peter Steinfeld: Yeah, well, knowing that all the bad stuff is evolving and knowing that the technology is evolving for someone early in their career who’s interested in resilience, emergency management or business continuity, what advice would you give to them?

Andy Lapierre: So first of all, you definitely got to have a little bit of thick skin. You’ve got to be prepared because if you’re getting involved, whether it’s from the emergency management side or the business resiliency side, you got to have some thick skin because there are going to be some things that are going to happen that aren’t going to be pretty, aren’t going to be nice, and you have to be ready for that. You have to be somebody that is well organized. You need some communication skills. These are all different things that people can look at. And when they’re going to higher education, look at these different fields that could potentially help them, you know, help get communication skills with your prerequisites and things like that.

But if you’re really truly wanting to go into like a business resiliency, there are now colleges and universities that are offering degrees now in it. There are certifications. So for myself I have a couple different certifications. One is what is a CBCP, which is a Certified Business Continuity Professional. And so there are different governing bodies out there that you go through and you take a course, you learn more about it, you have to take an exam and then you also have to demonstrate that you have expertise and knowledge of the categories that you’re being educated on. So it’s not just somebody can walk off the street, get that certification and go into it. You have to be able to demonstrate it. Same thing with, you know, you go back to being a firefighter medic, you’re just not going to walk off the street and become one. You’re going to go to the fire academy, you’re going to get your state license and things like that.

So you have to make sure that you’re getting the right certifications to do that type of work. And also too, I’m also president of the Alamo chapter of the Association of Continuity Professionals. So Association of Continuity Professionals, or ACP. We have chapters all throughout the United States. So with the one that I’m president of in San Antonio, we bring all like minded people. So whether you’re in emergency management, crisis management, business continuity, disaster recovery, project management, or hey, you know what, you’re none of the above, but you’re really passionate and want to know more about it. You can go ahead and join these organizations and you learn more about it. We do sessions such as webinars, we do in person, you know, chapter meetings and things like that. We have special guests come in and talk and give education. But also the people that have certifications, it helps them with what’s called their continuing education credits or their continuing education units. It helps them get those credits because you need to again continue that education in order to maintain your certification.

Peter Steinfeld: Yeah, it seems like the profession has become just that, a profession. Whereas pre-9/11 it was really focused on IT disaster recovery. That’s where this grew out of. And then people realized it’s more than just recovering the computers and the data. We got to think about the business and it became continuity and now it’s evolving to resilience and so on and so on.

Andy Lapierre: Absolutely. And if you check with the people that have been doing this for a while, you ask them how did you get started in this. Well, I was kind of voluntold I was going to be doing this new position.

Peter Steinfeld: Exactly.

Andy Lapierre: You know, or I was doing it and then I got moved over here and here it is. You know, all these years later I’m doing it. So back again, and if I reference the 9/11, I think those are the people that were kind of voluntold doing that position. Where now we have people, more people are more familiar with this and they’re saying that’s a profession I want to seek. We have a lot of different chapters that may have interns that are sitting in or organizations that are bringing interns in because it may be something that they’re interested in doing as a full time career.

Peter Steinfeld: Well, final question before we wrap up. What gives you confidence that organizations are becoming more resilient?

Andy Lapierre: Unfortunately, like we said, bad things happen. That’s not going to stop. However, the confidence is seeing the profession grow. When I first started doing this profession, it was really I felt a small group of people. And now as you reach out to the community, whether you’re talking to people on LinkedIn, you’re going to conferences or things like that, you’re seeing how big these professions have grown, not just here in the States, but now worldwide. Because those people know bad things are going to continue to happen and we need to be prepared for that. So seeing organizations understand that, especially if you’re part of the critical infrastructure, it’s almost a requirement that you have to have these people here if you want to stay in operations and be prepared. So seeing people come in wanting to do this job makes you feel good knowing that there’s going to be that continual lineage, if you will, of people that are ready to step up to the plate when something bad does happen.

Peter Steinfeld: Right. And it’s good. It’s like a snowball effect because something happens, it causes people to respond, which causes people to say, let’s maybe formalize this and start networking and have education behind it, now have degrees that you can get and then more people are in the field and it just keeps growing and growing from there. Absolutely fantastic. Well, Andy, this has been great. A lot of great information shared. I’m going to think about everything I do going forward, whether it be a process or a company or a department as a rubber band. I almost want to put something on the wall that shows like every process and thing I’m managing and I’ll just stretch a rubber band. And if it’s not stretched much, I know I got work to do. But if it stretches a lot, I know I’ve got good processes in place to make sure that it’s resilient if something bad happens.

Andy Lapierre: I’m glad somebody really enjoys that analogy because it’s the easiest way to sum it up. And like I said, when you’re talking to people and trying to keep jargons out of it and trying to keep acronyms, it’s the easiest and best way that I can describe it. But I appreciate you inviting me. This has been a great time. Really enjoyed the conversation.

Peter Steinfeld: To learn more about Andy, click the links in the episode description. You can also watch the video highlights on AlertMedia’s YouTube channel. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts, stay safe out there.

Outro: Thank you for listening to The Employee Safety Podcast from AlertMedia, the world’s leading provider of risk intelligence and response solutions. To learn more about how to protect your people and business during critical incidents, visit alertmedia.com.